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Greene County, Indiana ~ Saturday, July 5, 2008
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Our flag and nation deserve our allegiance
Posted Wednesday, February 27, 2008, at 7:29 PM<< Previous | Read comments | Respond | Email link | Next >>
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all."
With a group of more than 130 brave members of Alpha Company, 1st Battalion, 151st Infantry of Indiana National Guard -- based in Linton -- ready to head into harm's way in an Iraqi combat zone in the next few days defending our nation's freedom and upholding our liberty and justice, the patriotic senses in me are more than appalled at the latest Indiana Chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) case to hit the federal courts. A Franklin Central High School student filed a federal lawsuit against his Indiana school district claiming he was "wrongly" given one-hour of school detention because he refused to stand up during the reciting the 31 words that make up the Pledge of Allegiance to the United States Flag. The suit was settled quickly when the school realized the kid is right. He can't be compelled to stand up and recite the Pledge. At least that is what the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1943. The High Court says that school children can not be forced to recite the 'Pledge' as part of their daily classroom routine. Under state law, schools cannot compel a student to participate in the pledge if the student or the student's parent chooses not to have the student participate. Teachers are responsible for making sure students remain seated or standing during the moment of silence, and that they maintain silence and do not distract other students. The lawsuit by the 17-year-old boy -- identified only as J.L. -- was filed last Friday in U.S. District Court in Indianapolis by an attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union of Indiana. That's no big surprise. This is just another example of the twisted, misdirected legal judgments made by the ACLU. They love to clog up the judicial system challenging things like the public display of the Ten Commandments, the public display of Nativity scenes, prayer in our schools and the like. According to the Indianapolis Star, the Franklin Central student remained silent and continued to sit during the school's daily conducting of the pledge, followed by a moment of silence, on two different days earlier this month. The lawsuit says the student's teacher reprimanded him during each of the incidents and sent him to the school office after his second offense. The school superintendent -- knowing the school probably doesn't have a legal leg to stand on defending this case -- said that the students would not be punished for refusing to stand for the pledge. The superintendent contends the school district had not planned to take any action in the case, but the lawsuit was filed before the two students were notified of that decision. Also, the school has agreed to pay $1,000 for attorney and filing fees. Again, it's a real shame that the courts have stripped away some of our patriotic rights. But what is right is right and what is wrong is wrong. In my humble opinion, the teen boy was wrong and disrespectful to his nation and fellow classmates for deciding on those two days that he was going to make a public statement and refuse to afford the homage to our flag that it deserves. How difficult is it to just stand up for less than a minute? Talking real straight and 'old school' in my mind this kind of a case begs for some attention. I'm not suggesting that the Franklin Central student ought to be subjected to what I will call some good old "spiritually-inspired redneck justice" by his classmates or his teachers. But, I can tell you if this particular incident happened at the southern Indiana parochial grade school I attended back in the 1960s, he would have probably been ripped out of his desk seat by his shirt collar and stood up at attention by one of the 'dear sweet nuns' who taught at our school. Before the pledge was concluded, he would have been reciting it along with the rest of us.
Nick is the assistant editor for the Greene County Daily World. He can be reached by telephone at 847-4487 or 1-800-947-4487 or by e-mail at nschneider@gcdailyworld.com Comments Showing comments in chronological order [Show most recent comments first] |
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"But, I can tell you if this particular incident happened at the southern Indiana parochial grade school I attended back in the 1960s, he would have probably been ripped out of his desk seat by his shirt collar and stood up at attention by one of the 'dear sweet nuns' who taught at our school. Before the pledge was concluded, he would have been reciting it along with the rest of us."
Thank God the times have changed.
This post started out really well.
It's important to recognize the 151st. They're going to an ugly place, and our support is welcomed.
I'm very thankful for their commitment. We all should be.
"Again, it's a real shame that the courts have stripped away some of our patriotic rights."
What?
Your rights have been stripped away because someone else is exercising their right?
I'll admit, this was pretty good.
You had me going for a second.
Classic satire at its finest.
"In my humble opinion, the teen boy was wrong and disrespectful to his nation and fellow classmates for deciding on those two days that he was going to make a public statement and refuse to afford the homage to our flag that it deserves."
This is pretty good too.
I laughed.
I cried.
I thought.
The post started out well, but quickly deteriorated into the same old trash.
"The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman."
- Thomas Paine
More power to the kid. At least he has the guts to "sit" for what he believes in.
The "kid" has no guts and probably has parents to match. This whole "question authority-left-over from the sixties" child is disrespectful and deserves no more public attention than he has already deserved.
I feel sorry for him as he obviously has been misled by someone he considers an authority figure. His mentors, no doubt, strut around in their self-righteous, ungrateful world. How many decades have we heard of such a greedy person denegrating the very country they "use and abuse". Perhaps he would be more accepting of a country with no patriotic heritage, more chaos, little respect for veterans and their relatives and the people who died for his right to dissent.
His first ammendment rights are protected as free speech but his disrespect for America and our sacrificing military is obvious.
The teacher should pull the little fella out in the hall and have a talk with him. The option should be for him to join his fellow students (out of respect for their lost veterans and for his country) or he can sit in the hall. Perhaps a nice little essay or speech on the Holocaust(or the invasion of Normandy or battle of Gettysburg) will ignite his free speech to a new level. To be fair to this nice little boy, the other students should be required to do the same assignment.
This approach would be educational, would appease the ACLU and quite possibly give this teenager the first taste of American work ethic, sacrifice and respect he has been exposed to.
On a personal note, if he were my son, I would spank his behind, take away all of his privilages and take him with me to visit the Veterans hospital in Indianapolis. This summer would be a great time to pull him away from the Nintendo, TV, hanging out with his peers, or smoking whatever he smokes(assuming he has also learned this behavior from his mentors) and take him to Gettysburg cemetary, Arlington National cemetary and perhaps even a nice father-son fishing trip and a talk about where he is spending eternity. I think he needs attention and some positive re-inforcement, not a deluded ACLU championing his pathetic cause.
I guess the whole irony of this story is that there are now, and in the past men and women dying to protect this country's freedom so people can voice what they believe. I guess thats what is so great about this country, and so wrong at the same time.
151st: stay low,shoot straight, come back safe, may GOD watch over you
Kudos to the kid.
At least he wasn't misled into blindly following like the rest of the patriotic sheep do. I am proud that he can think for himself. To "baaad" most people cannot.
junkmail - this kid's attitude and yours are what's wrong with America today. The first amendment gives you the right to free speech, but it should be exercised with responsiblity and respect.
I agree 100% with Greene County Patriot - and I don't do it blindly.
Chooselife - my attitude is exactly what this country needs. A few more free thinkers might get this country out of the horrible situation it is in. Let me recite the pledge of allegiance instead of doing something more usefull.
I agree with junkmail and wonder if no one see's the problem with indoctrinating children from practically the moment they can speak to 'pledge their allegiance' to something they may not fully understand. Is it 'ethical' to ask anyone underage to 'pledge allegiance' to anything?
Perhaps it would be more fair and reasonable to ask children to take a moment to stand up and honor the country in which they are recieving an education and to thank those who fought for their freedom to chose, if they wish to.
Beating children into submission, threatening or ostracizing them to force them to believe what you believe is not very 'american'. That method sounds more like 'brainwashing'. Hopefully those days are long gone.
True PATROITS don't have to constantly talk about it and brag, they know it in their soul. Can Mr, Schnieder get a reporter's job enbedded with our local soldiers in the combat zone?
It is funny how the liberals flock together when they have a cause that is clearly against the majority of America.
The "real" James Madison learned, after sufferring many defeats in small battles and comitting troops to the War of 1812 against the British, that a strong military was necessary to keep the nation great. He also reversed many of his opinions concerning the military, including the necessity of a strong central bank and favored nationalism. He also combined efforts with Thomas Jefferson to preserve republicanism in the United States. He commented, post-war, of how the nation would not have survived had it not been for the surge in nationalism and pride in America (patriotism).
James Madison was a PATRIOT, not a hack who avoids subject matter by threatening a writer who is perpetuating his freedom of speech, which you can choose not to read. You could all spend your extra time, 1439 minutes a day out of 1440 available, appreciating your veterans, soldiers and country.
I think you and your other "brainwashed" friends had a few many time-outs by your "Dr. Spock loving" parents.
Patriot, how is it that we are brainwashed when it is us who choose to think different? As far as the majority of America goes, just because you have the majority doesn't always make you right, it could make a whole lot of people wrong. Oh and as far as my liberalism goes, Dr. Spock didn't have a place in my house when I was a child, nor does he have a place in my house with my child. My child knows not to lie or steal, and she also knows to be herself and not someone she isn't. Like a fake patriot.
Please use a few more minutes of your "more useful" time to logically defend your anti-Americanism. Also, being a forward thinker and just being myself (like your daughter),to say you are not "anti-American" by refusing to say the Pledge of Allegiance is like saying you are a Christian and not believing in prayer.
If you concede the point that you are anti-American, then you have joined the ranks of other self proclaimed free thinkers like George Clooney, Barbara Streisand, Rosie O'Donnell, Micheal Moore and many more America hating liberals.
You may not have been raised by the Dr. Spock philosophy of childrearing, but you are certainly a liberal if you support this kid, believe your one minute of thought per day is worth more than the Pledge of Alligence and believe that people who love this country enough to respect the flag are merely "patriotic sheep".
Don't think that you are so correct to reject the pledge and that many more could be wrong. Maybe you are in the very small thinking and numerical minority who are wrong because you are wrong.
Also, don't forget, being in the majority of people who love their country is an honor. I hope you will reconsider your position as a pessimistic supporter of free and illogical thoughts and join the majority of us who have already "plowed this field" and are resolved that this is the greatest country in the world. We are right. That is why we have more people trying to get into this country than any other country in the world.
Logically then, one should pledge allegience to it.
Patriot, why do you get to have it both ways? You use your right of free speech to degrade others over someone exercising their right to free speech?
"A nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people." --John F. Kennedy
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty. When the loyal opposition dies, I think the soul of America dies with it." --Edward R. Murrow
"No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare. --James Madison
"That we are to stand by the president, right or wrong is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." --Theodore Roosevelt
"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." --Thomas Jefferson
QUOTES BY GREAT PATRIOTS (not Greene County Patriots)
I must have misplaced my manual on Americanism. Can I borrow yours? I am not "anti-American" for not saying the pledge of allegiance. There are more ways to show it than an archaic ritual that means nothing.
I certainly am a liberal and proud of it. I am willing to bet that your main man would be a liberal too if he was around today.
I never said I was correct to reject the pledge, but you seem so proud of your majority that I must remind you that Hitler had the majority, and he was obviously wrong. Or does the majority rule?
I think my country is fine. I don't think it is the greatest country in the world. Mainly because I don't think there is one. Every country has something they are good at. Japan has electronics. Canada has actors and musicians. France has food. Italy has art.
If you love to recite the pledge so much do you do it every time you see a flag? Just curious. If so, how do you ever get anything else done?
If they feel degraded, then perhaps they should reconsider their position.
I appreciate everyones' right to free speech but will use my right to defend my position.
I have no control whether others feel guilty, degraded or without a country they love. Do you?
During ceremonies where the Pledge is recited, I happily join in the recitation, because I believe in The Pledge, as I believe in my country. However, we should not harbor any sanctimonious attitudes toward others who have reasons for not joining in this recitation. There are people who have religious, spiritual or personal beliefs, which may preclude them from offering this pledge and it is their right to abstain. This right was supported and defended by our Supreme Court Justices, in a decision as far back as 1943. Our liberties and freedom are not based on coercion of thought and we should all respect the rights of others in every aspect of our lives.
On a lighter side, I couldn't help but think of Jake and Elwood when you mentioned the "dear sweet nuns".
Simmons,
You always seem to have the right words to say. Any attitude I have towards those who abstain from the pledge would be pity. I feel sorry for them as I regard this country so highly that I just don't understand their apathy.
As for you others...are you having a party tonight without inviting me tonight? I really appreciate you looking up those quotes for me. Oh, I have a quote from one of your favorite patriots.."It depends what is is." -William Jefferson Clinton (at his impeachment hearings)
After several beers this evening;(dramatic pause) I'll admit that as I was logging on I looked forward to reading all of the comments since I posted the initial response to Mr. Schneider's post.
As I read in succession, I formulated varying responses to several points knowing I'd respond, in type, to nary.
Then I read simmons.
He said exactly what needed to be said, and said it every bit as perfectively concise as it could've been said.
That said, I'll say nothing.
GCPatriot, good comments, but keep in mind that there are many religious and personal beliefs, which most of us have a difficult time understanding. The case that was decided by the Supreme Court in 1943 (W. Va. State Board of Education vs Barnette) centered on the fact that the Jehovah Witness' belief that pledging allegiance to the flag was akin to idolatry. I am definitely not a student of theology, but I do know that many people have some extreme convictions and fortunately (or unfortunately) our Constitution grants them that right. I say unfortunately, only because I am convinced that there are some Islamic fanatics in this country who hide behind that explicitly stated liberty.
I understand the Amish do the same thing. However, they still remain standing without saying the words.
This is much more respectful then sitting and bragging about it through attorneys.
Don't worry troops leaving now for Iraq, most of us honor what you are doing and appreciate your service, dedication, and your patriotism.
We will keep the home fires burning and keep the coffee pot on for you when you return.
Patriot, I cannot see how the kid was bragging through an attorney. He would have never had a lawyer if it wasn't for his rights being violated. I understand you don't like that he can just sit there, but the Supreme Court says he can. Period.
As far as the troops leaving for Iraq, good luck and stay safe. I support you in all you do, but not why you have to do it.
The Supreme Court does have the final say, but it too makes mistakes (i.e. Rowe Vs. Wade with many more overturned cases in addition).
James Madison, our fourth president and our last recognized founding father wrote over a third(Publius) of the Federalist papers and believed strongly in the check and balances of power of the government. To the number, our signers of the constitution believed the government had a great risk of not expressing the will of the people and becoming too large. When the courts, whether Supreme, Appeals or Circuit begin to legislate, then they have circumnavigated the intent of our Constitution.
When Congress looses it's power to legislate, the President loses his power of veto and the Supreme court loses their power to interpret the Constitution, then we are on a slippery road to a liberal, secular, socialist government for the government and by the government. Our country thrives on the ingenuity of independent thought( a free thinker is not one who is so dynamic as to sit and do nothing), invention, and entrpreneurship. Capitalism has and always will prepail over government(a great example is the Human Genome Project- the government challenged it's government funded labs to sequence the genome in 15 years while an individual-Craig Venter with Celera-did it in two years).
I hope the boy, in this case, will understand, one day, the point he was making and it's consequences and affect it has on our troops, families of soldiers and veterans.
So just because this kid doesn't stand for the Pledge you think some deity is going to condemn them to a life of purgatory after they have passed?
As for James Madison and his "Dr. Spock loving parents." I can assure you that you are very far off with that statement. His parents are both damn fine people one of which served this 'great' country in a foreign war.
Let's just hate on everyone who thinks for themselves and does not conform to the same standards you live by.
Egg
There is no purgatory.
You must be aware of Dr. Spock, therefore you probably also know he was a draft dodger in 1968. I am greatful for the education about the fine parents of "James Madison". It is "James " who I was addressing and assumed he was raised from parents and not hatched from an egg.....
I don't expect conformity, but I sure don't want a non-conformist defending Greene County or America when it needs defended.
"Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth."
-John Fitzgerald Kennedy
"The opposite of bravery is not cowardice, but conformity."
-Robert Anthony
"Any fool can make a rule, and every fool will mind it."
-Henry David Thoreau
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."
-Dr. Seuss
No purgatory? Then what do you mean when you say "perhaps even a nice father-son fishing trip and a talk about where he is spending eternity."? It seems to me you were inferring the youngster would find himself in hot water eternally merely for standing up, or in this case sitting down, for himself.
Dr. Spock was a draft dodger? From what I read about him it says he served during World War II as a psychiatrist in the U.S. Navy Reserve Medical Corps, ending with the rank of lieutenant commander. Also, by my calculations he would have been around the age of sixty-five in 1968 and I'm guessing the US wasn't drafting very many guys that old to go off to war.
You're quite welcome for the education. I felt it necessary seeing as how James Madison and his parents are very close to me. It's one thing to argue semantics, but it's really not necessary to bring someone's family into an argument. As for hatching from an egg if you look at the how we are created as humans you could say we all come from an egg.
I'd say right now the majority of the American defense are defending in the wrong spot, but that's a different argument altogether.
I'm really feeling the love in this blog tonight. Great way to start the weekend, with the pleasure of knowing that our great nation allows us to banter freely on controversial subjects without fear of reprisal. It's an awful tough world out there, but our part of it is pretty darn close to utopia.
Remember what Woody Allen said, "We stand at a crossroads: One path leads to despair and utter hopelessness. The other leads to total extinction. Let us hope we have the wisdom to make the right choice."
I was not inferring anything. Certainly, even Catholics deny purgatory (it's inventor) since the Pope decided to rid their church of it. Purgatory is not defined as heaven or hell, but was considered a place of temporary punishment.
My thought on a productive father-son talk would include making sure the boy knows he is going to heaven or just to talk about how great heaven is and other important discussion topics a parent should have with their child. Some good topics parents should include in talks with their sons include but are not limited to: eternity(dicuss Christ and His sacrifice), chivalry, manners, finances, drugs, sex, philanthropy, respect for elders and ladies, school grades, the future after high school, patriotism, picking the best friends, curfews, work ethic, fishing and even baseball.
I also agree with you that JamesMadisons parents should not have been brought into this. I apologize to them. Perhaps Mr. Madison should refrain from recommending sending a non-soldier (Mr. Schneider) into war. In retrospect, perhaps this fine young man who has so much conviction as to sit and whine could help our military. The discipline and training does a lot of good for all concerned. I would be very interested where this 17 year old ends up in five or ten years.
You are right about Dr. Spock's age and I was wrong about him being a draft dodger. He was only convicted of conspiracy to counsel, aid and abet resistance to the draft in 1968. Next time, I'll be more careful with the facts.